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标题: Neato Botvac ”请打开...”错误的深入分析及bv充电特性图解 [打印本页]

作者: starmoon    时间: 2016-3-5 01:50:42     标题: Neato Botvac ”请打开...”错误的深入分析及bv充电特性图解

相关贴子: BotVac 充电时提示“请打开我的垃圾盒并按下按钮开关”
(感觉论坛bblqs版主,frdragon,xmysz,lubol等大侠和其他neato用户的积极参于讨论和分析)

问题回顾:2014年底,starmoon首次报导botvac 80在充电上座时会出现如下问题:
error-switchon-chs.jpg error-switchon-eng.jpg
(当时机器使用半年左右,每天清扫)

联系美国neato反映了这个问题,但是他们没有重视,也没有解决方案,只让寄回机器维修,中国neato代理也表示行货没有出这样的问题,水货无法处理。

后来经过3个多月的试验和购买新机比较,确认是电池有问题,更换电池后解决问题。
(但出问题的电池在使用强制重启后可以正常清扫并且续航能力没有明显降低)

时隔几个月,新电池再次出问题,换回老电池,发现又能正常工作。

至2015年中,越来越多的用户报告了此问题,而neato也没有改进软件,论坛boxicha大侠经过1个月的测量和研发,试验成功串联电阻降低电流的方法来解决问题,但是串联电阻会延长充电时间,当串联过大时,会引起充电超时报错,串联过小不起作用,经试验在1-2欧的电阻较合适,可以解决问题,又能防止报错。(具体值需要试验决定,下有分析)
2ohm.jpg    1ohm.jpg

感谢论坛xmysz大侠的软件,帮助数据化深入分析了neato机型的充电特性 (见:超酷的电脑版Neato控制台软件下载及使用教程!!! )
软件界面: (充电监测部分)
NeatoControllerUI.png

一决完整的正常充电记录(包含一次自动补充电,原机无故障,未串电阻)
normal-charge-inprogress.png
(充电进行中)

Complete-with-vMax-1.png

Complete-with-vMax-11.png

Complete-with-vMax-2.png

Complete-with-vMax-3.png

ok-normal-nomodify.png

neato会自动的对电池进行补充,应该是根据电压触发的
long-time-logging-auto-recharge-inprogress.png

故障机充电记录
error-switchon-1.png

error-switchon-2.png

error-switchon-3.png

error-switchon-4.png

故障机器电池串联电阻1欧后,充电能正常完成
ok-complete-with-1Ohm.png
(此时的充电电流从原来的1.9-2.1A降到了1.5-1.7A,充电不再报错)

boxicha的故障机串联电阻2欧后的图型(有意外发现)
Complete-with-dV-1.png

Complete-with-dV-2.png
从如上图看到,当电流进一步降低到1A左右,一直认为没有-deltaV检测的bv充电过程出现了-deltaV动作,初步分析是充电程序首先进行了V.max判断,然后再进行-dV判断,当充电电流很大时(>1.5A),电池电压会很快上升达到V.max,所以没有机会出现-dV充满判断。

分析出现“请打开。。”故障原因:
1. 大电流充电时,电池电压上升过快,特别是使用了一定时间的电池,达到软件设置的报警门限(约16.5V)
2. 软件错误的认为电池端电压上升过快可能是因为电池开关没有打开的原因(电池开路,电压会降充电电压变化)
3. bv充电软件设置了过低的V.Max截止电压(约15.5V),导至电池不能够在大电流下完全充满
4. bv充电软件有-deltaV机制,只是因为错误的参数设置,而没有得到启用
5. bv在充电站上时,依然使用电池供系统使用。(约-100mA)
6. bv会自动对电池重新补充电
7. bv似乎没有涓流充电

另附: fydragon大侠绘制的neato bv充电电路原理图(初稿)
BV-Charge-Circuit.png
(从图中可以看出,neato的充电电路硬件上还是比较完善的,各种过程都可以程序控制。)




附件: ok-complete-with-1Ohm.png (2016-3-5 01:39:20, 102.7 KB) / 下载次数 55
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附件: ok-normal-nomodify.png (2016-3-5 01:03:40, 96.05 KB) / 下载次数 58
http://bbs.bblqs.com/forum.php?mod=attachment&aid=MjA3NDZ8NjRiNTY0OTZ8MTU0ODI3MTg2MXwwfDA%3D

附件: normal-charge-inprogress.png (2016-3-5 01:03:37, 91.28 KB) / 下载次数 50
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附件: long-time-logging-auto-recharge-inprogress.png (2016-3-5 01:03:35, 96.81 KB) / 下载次数 54
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附件: Complete-with-vMax-11.png (2016-3-5 01:03:28, 99.69 KB) / 下载次数 54
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附件: Complete-with-dV-2.png (2016-3-5 01:03:24, 108.49 KB) / 下载次数 57
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附件: BV-Charge-Circuit.png (2016-3-5 01:03:22, 81.12 KB) / 下载次数 77
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附件: 2ohm.jpg (2016-3-5 01:03:21, 100.22 KB) / 下载次数 59
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附件: 1ohm.jpg (2016-3-5 01:03:20, 115.3 KB) / 下载次数 57
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作者: starmoon    时间: 2016-3-5 01:54:02

本帖最后由 starmoon 于 2016-3-5 01:59 编辑


______________________________________
From:starmoonxp@gmail.com
Sent: 12/17/20148:31 AM
To:support@neatorobotics.com;asiasupport@neatorobotics.com
Subject: Re: neatobotvac 80, need help
Dearsupport,
Thankyou for your quick replay. I did the sugested steps and I will met the sameerror message before the battery icon become solid green in step three, so Ican start a clean.
thefollowing conditions may give more information about this issue:
1)repeat power cycle and charger for severial times, the botvac sometimes canpass the charge step and can do a clean. the clean procedure seems normal andthe battery capacity can support about 1hour or more.
2)when I switch to power off by the SWITCH for a little long (more than 15s), thetime setting will go 00:00. Is it normal?
3)when the time displaying 00:00, the bot no longer say ".. push the SWITCHto ON", but It can't do clean on schedules. manual start clean verynormal.
4)there are at least three botvacs in one of China robot forum met with this sameissue. (the forum address is: http://bbs.bblqs.com/forum-Neato-1.html ,Chineseonly)
5)the issue happens while the tempreture is lower then 10C. it doen't happen insummer and autumn.
6)i did connect the usb to computer, tested ervery senors and switchs withterminal, seems everything's OK.
7)i guess it is a software bug, not hardware issue. (I'm an emmbbed system designer)
wishfor your future more help.
thanks.
-----Original Message -----
From:support@neatorobotics.com
To:starmoonxp@gmail.com
Sent:Friday, December 12, 2014 6:24 PM
Subject:RE: neato botvac 80, need help
Hello,
Thankyou for contacting Neato Customer Care, my name is Emilio and I will beassisting you today.
Iunderstand that you are having some issues with your Neato,and I will be happyto assist you with this.
Listedhere are some troubleshooting steps that i would like you to try.
-Goahead and shut off your Neato using the switch,make sure it is away from thecharging base when you do it and let Neato stay off for 5 minutes.
-Whenyou turn it on again it should say`my battery are low please charge me`.
-Goahead and charge it till the light gets solid green,then start a cleaningcycle.
Atthis point you should have the error message cleared.
Ido want to inform you that by purchasing the Neato from a reseller located in adifferent country then yours and by having the Neato shipped to China,you didvoid the warranty that comes with your Neato,therefore if the troubleshoot didnot work,we will not be able to process your request.
Ihope I was able to fully address your concerns today.
Ifyou have any other questions, comments, or concerns, please feel free to:
Contactus at 1-720-785-5047.
Emailus at asiasupport@neatorobotics.com
Chatwith us on our web site www.neatorobotics.com (6am - 8pm Mountain StandardTime).
Thankyou for being a Neato Robotics Customer!
Emilio
NeatoCustomer Care
1-877-296-3286USA
1-720-785-5047outside USA
______________________________________
From:starmoonxp@gmail.com
Sent:12/8/2014 11:40 AM
To:CustomerCare@neatorobotics.com
Subject:neato botvac 80, need help
Dearsupport,
Ihave bought a botvac 80, works fine for serival months.
Recently,my botvac refuse to work saying "Please open my dirt bin & push switchDOWN to ON.",
Idoes followed the "Troubleshooting Your Neato", doesn't help it out.
I'msure the power switch is on "ON" position and the power switch worknormal(when i full to OFF possition while nocharger connect, the system willpoweroff).
WhenI switch OFF and ON, the bot says "charging", when i press the"START" button before full charged. the rob will clean my housenormally when charge complete. If let it charging the rob will tell me toswitch ON again (and again).
I'min P.R.China. the botvac series does not sell in China now. So I bought it fromUS AMAZON store.
ps:myneato account name is starmoonxp@gmail.com

thanks.

作者: xmysz    时间: 2016-3-5 02:00:31

大赞!
                                 
作者: starmoon    时间: 2016-3-5 02:00:58

发件人: Starmoonxp [mailto:starmoonxp@gmail.com]
发送时间: 2014年12月18日 22:11
收件人: support@neatorobotics.com; customercare@neatorobotics.com; asiasupport@neatorobotics.com
主题: Re: Re: neato botvac 80, need help

?

Hello, Mariko

I bought my botvac 80 in March 2014, It works fine until cuple weeks ago.

Hard reset does not clear the error. The bot will display the error beofore charge complete.

I don't care about the warranty now. I  will return to the dealer in US if needed.

I mail you directly just because I want help both side to solve the problem. Then are some others met the same problem when i search the internet.

Would please pass this thread to some technical engineers to anylysis with?

Thank you again.

BTW: last mail i wrote when clock displays 00:00 the bot will work fine. This is not true after 3days test, the error appears again today.

----- Original Message -----

From: support@neatorobotics.com

To: starmoonxp@gmail.com

Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 12:59 PM

Subject: RE: Re: neato botvac 80, need help

Hello,
Thank you for contacting Neato Robotics Customer Care. My name is Mariko and I will be assisting you today.
Yes. It is normal that when you completely turn off the power of your Neato which we call it "Hard reset", your neato will reset its clock also.
Neato does not like cold temperature. Especially the battery may gets errors in cold. In this case, we simply ask to move the Neato to a warmer environment.
Do you get the same error that your Neato initially has? Does your Neato still not recognize that it is ON/Off after Hard reset?
If so, your Neato needs to be repaired or replaced, however, as our agent has mentioned, since you have voided the warranty with us, we cannot replace your Neato at this time.
The software update is not available for Botvac series at the moment, if the issue still persists, you can try the software update if it becomes available.
If you have any other questions or concerns, please feel free to contact us at 1-877-296-3286, email us at customercare@neatorobotics.com or Chat with us on our web site (www.neatorobotics.com, 6:00 am to 8:00 pm mountain standard time). Please keep in mind that our hours of operation are 6:00AM – 10:00PM mountain standard time 7 days a week.
Thank you for being a Neato Robotics customer!
Mariko
Neato Robotics Customer Care
1-877-296-3286 (U.S.)
720-785-5047 (Outside U.S.)


作者: starmoon    时间: 2016-3-5 02:04:11

本帖最后由 starmoon 于 2016-3-5 03:20 编辑

Dear CustmerCare and Techsupport,
(please read the previous thread first.)

Since there are more and more users reported the same issue. Some of neato users did some iverstigation on the issue and got some result. We look forward to share the result with your technical guys. if possiable, will you please assign some engineer direct contact with us.

Sepcial thanks to bbs.bblqs.com forum that give us the good platform for users to interaction together.
Thanks to forum user boxicha who first instruct simple method to workarround this issue (partly).
Thanks to forum user xmysz who wrote great software "NeatoController" that help us inverstigate the neato bots.

the story:
1. Forum user starmoon first reported the isson on Dec. 2014.  (http://bbs.bblqs.com/thread-6849-1-1.html)
2. Forum user 冰山一角,uavana,bee1004cn,quincyxy,stella,boxicha,yangxq,etc. reported the same isuse, model bv 80/85/70e, after work for about 6-12 months.
3. Forum user boxicha first instruct a method to workarround the issue by series a resistor to charge cirucirt.
4. forum user xmysz post his neatocontroller software.


5. The test and the result
First of all, lets see some normal charging log. (good machine with good battery, no modify)

(charging in progress)


(charge complete with V.max detected)










(auto recharge after the battery voltage discharge to certain level.)

Then, the "issued" machine and/or battery log. (issued machine with no modify)







the botvac reports "please open my dirt bin and push SWITCH down to ON", but we are sure the swich position is ok.

Go on, after modify the charge station. We got this: (issued machine with series 1 Ohm resistor)

(the charge current degrees from 1.9A-2.1A to 1.5A-1.7A, charge complete with no error, diagram looks smoother)

(issued matchine with series 2 Ohm resistor)



(we found that the botvac does have -dV detection function after reduce the charge current to about 1A.)

After all, we have some guess on the issue and some other founds.
1. The reason (maybe) cause Botvac report "please open..." is the battery voltage rise too fast and exceed the software set limit  while in charging and recharge. (the limit is about 16.5V)
2. The software determine there maybe no battery connected or the battery switch is OFF when the battery voltage rise too fast.
3. The Botvac use the V.max(about 15.5V) algorithm to stop the charge process(mostly), this may cause battery unfully charged.
4. The botvac do have -deltaV charged end algorithm when the charge current is limited to certain value.(about 1A). but with the above V.max limits the -deltaV won't take effect with normal charge current at about 2A.
5. The botvac will consume the battery capacity even the maches was docked at charge station.(current about -100mA).
6. The botvac will auto recharge the battery after the battery voltage drops to certain value.
7. The botvac seem does not have trickle charge algorithm to maitenace the battery to full charged.
(end)

Thanks,
Look forward to your reply.
From some neato users and fans.
March 5, 2016.




作者: 后工业时代    时间: 2016-3-5 09:08:13

应该抛弃镍氢电池,用锂电池就不会出现这样的问题了(我指厂家抛弃,不是个人用户改造)
作者: bblqs    时间: 2016-3-5 10:06:04

从理论上来说,电池内阻必然会随着使用时间增加而增加,所以本帖出现的问题在所有BV用户使用半年到一年后几乎必现,而出现前还会因为电池老化内阻增大,在大电流充电下很快达到Vmax 15.5V阈值而提前停充(直接表现是续航下降到以前的一半如20-30分钟),真心希望Neato Robotics能够针对这些明显问题(准确的说是BUG)尽早修复,由于实在太浅显了所以稍微懂点的人就能分析出问题原因(其实主板上有非常赞的库仑计IC),也希望Neato能在自家产品上做足够长时间的测试再上市销售,不要把用户拿来当测试小白鼠,Botvac自2014年3月份上市以来,防撞栏、滚刷等都在短时间内相继发现设计问题,加上本贴内的电池算法问题,确实有种黑铁不成钢的感觉... ...
作者: 后工业时代    时间: 2016-3-5 11:05:21

bblqs 发表于 2016-3-5 10:06
从理论上来说,电池内阻必然会随着使用时间增加而增加,所以本帖出现的问题在所有BV用户使用半年到一年后几 ...

出现这种情况,我认为无非是以下几种可能:
1、neato一家独大,没有生存压力。 在智能机的领域,好像neato还没有对手,irobot的是功能机,根本没有法同neato比,neato老板认为维持现状足够了

2、该给的钱没有到位。 技术研究是一项苦B的工作,但是老板不舍得多给点奖金,那就只能这样了。

3、neato选择在中国代工,其实是一个错误的决定。首选代工的国家是日本,其次是德国。为了赚取最大例如,选错合作伙伴,质量只能是这样了。
作者: xwingfighter    时间: 2016-3-5 21:22:08

感觉BV系列问题不少,Neato应该提高产品质量,为用户排忧解难。
作者: starmoon    时间: 2016-3-6 01:04:36

后工业时代 发表于 2016-3-5 11:05
出现这种情况,我认为无非是以下几种可能:
1、neato一家独大,没有生存压力。 在智能机的领域,好像neat ...

1. neato 太偏软件
2. 同上
3. 同上
作者: i0562    时间: 2016-3-7 12:01:50

看官方是否能根据这贴建议改进软件吧,我的都坏了一个多月了
作者: 英凯    时间: 2016-3-8 21:56:23

要是早一点看到这个帖    估计直接罗伯特980了    刚刚入手D8500  
作者: starmoon    时间: 2016-3-8 23:38:49

英凯 发表于 2016-3-8 21:56
要是早一点看到这个帖    估计直接罗伯特980了    刚刚入手D8500

不影响neato bv系列是最好的扫地机
作者: 英凯    时间: 2016-3-10 15:07:13

starmoon 发表于 2016-3-8 23:38
不影响neato bv系列是最好的扫地机

   不过用了2次  感觉真是不错   希望不要出现问题   呵呵。。。     
作者: 七四七    时间: 2016-3-17 20:23:11

这个问题就没办法解决么?
作者: uavana    时间: 2016-3-21 16:20:38

这么严重的BUG , Neato 中国的工程师怎么看? 上市两年 毫无固件改进, 完全不思进取, 以后还是考虑买980了, 起码质量过硬, 软件一直在改进! 思进取!
作者: lin50829    时间: 2016-4-4 22:22:00

本帖最后由 lin50829 于 2016-4-4 22:45 编辑

再次报告:去年入冬前(11月份)室内温度低至10度左右,家里两台bv(一台80,一台85)中的一台出现此故障。购买替换电池问题解决。今春停暖气第二天两台机器又同时出现此故障。证明此故障应与室内温度有直接关系。采用串联电阻方法,购买4只50w、2.2欧姆电阻,每台机器并联两只电阻(等效1.1欧姆100w)串联至充电出线,故障修复。基本无大量发热。去冬换下的故障电池重新装上,两机器均能工作90分钟以上,充电时机器充电时长无明显变化。
作者: lin50829    时间: 2016-4-4 22:41:42

对bv确实又爱又恨:目前经历过的故障1、马云家购买中两台新机有故障,一台屏显不全,一台充满电绿灯不亮,均返回卖家换新;2;边刷皮带断了,马云家购买20元一条换上;3、胶毛一体刷边上轴承毛发缠绕卡死,马云家购买同型号轴承,备用了20个;4、光头驱动电机停转,大年初五拆开电机用铜片修补电刷工作恢复,马云家3元/个购买同型号电机10个备用;5、家中二楼bv在某一天跌落传感器失效,楼梯上跌下摔成碎片,AB胶粘复原,清理传感器恢复正常;6、bv前端碰撞传感器外塑料触点磨损,自粘塑料片恢复灵敏;7、目前两台机器越障碍能力明显下降,短毛地毯边经常爬不上去,懒得收拾了。综上:最初给很多朋友都推荐了此机,也帮忙代买过几台。但现在不敢再给人推荐,因为问题太多。本人资深电气工程师,动手能力极强基本能应付各种故障,推荐给普通无动手能力的朋友,他们估计在无我技术支持的情况下无法正常能用机器时间不会超过一年半(每周工作3次左右)。现已停止推荐,坐等型号更新。期待connected能有良好表现。。。
作者: 清角吹寒    时间: 2016-4-12 00:43:25

neato的做法是:不断升级,但是抛弃老用户。你看他们新出的connected版,直接采用锂电池了。
作者: Jambalaya    时间: 2016-5-19 16:13:08

本帖最后由 Jambalaya 于 2016-6-8 11:24 编辑

这里也回一个,是学习楼主这贴后动手改的。

使用半年的BV85一直工作良好没出现过错误提示,防患未然也简单改了充电座。

在反光识别板中心位置上下打了两个孔,装俩LED。
一个用作电源指示,就是把主板的电源LED搬过来。
一个用作充电指示,充电线串2.5欧20瓦水泥电阻,LED串2k电阻再与水泥电阻并联。

附件: Neato B85 LED.jpg (2016-6-8 11:24:10, 51.46 KB) / 下载次数 82
http://bbs.bblqs.com/forum.php?mod=attachment&aid=MjIwNjJ8MjI3ODc5OGJ8MTU0ODI3MTg2MXwwfDA%3D
作者: kxbing    时间: 2016-12-3 11:52:03

这里好,要搞定Neato还得多来逛逛学学。
作者: 蓝天白云    时间: 2017-10-16 21:17:17

从“一决完整的正常充电记录(包含一次自动补充电,原机无故障,未串电阻”的6、7、8图中可以清楚的看出充电是电压(Vmax)判停,既然是电压判停,那电池内阻、低温、电池衰减、充电电流等等的影响理应不存在了,但是事实不是如此,为什么没人怀疑助手呢?
(申明:我对助手的作者没有丝毫不敬的意思,只是认为上传的数据及软件的局限性,未必图形一定准确)
作者: 蓝天白云    时间: 2017-10-16 21:19:17

还有楼主为什么不把那个经典贴的10节电池内阻测试结果发出来呢?
作者: starmoon    时间: 2017-10-17 00:21:44

蓝天白云 发表于 2017-10-16 21:17
从“一决完整的正常充电记录(包含一次自动补充电,原机无故障,未串电阻”的6、7、8图中可以清楚的看出充电 ...

所有数据都是机器自已报告的,助手只是把数据绘成图,和实测对比看,机器报告的基本正确

电压判停已经是错误状态,报“请打开开关错”是系统认为电压上升过快,所以判断可能没有接电池(开关断开)。

作者: ooliujunoo    时间: 2018-1-10 19:49:35

电阻去哪里买啊能给我一个马云能搜到的型号么
作者: ooliujunoo    时间: 2018-1-13 18:37:19

电阻去哪里买啊
作者: mengde0532    时间: 2018-1-14 20:10:42

ooliujunoo 发表于 2018-1-13 18:37
电阻去哪里买啊

俺们电工手里都是一大把,或者你去假货宝买几个也行
作者: pjyxf3    时间: 2018-3-11 15:36:04

如果是电流小了超时报错,不是提示垃圾盒按下开关的吗。我改了以后使用2次还是报错。
作者: 横州仔    时间: 2018-6-20 13:02:06

我的BV85S这段时间开始原地打转,淘宝客服说要更换主板,美国运回1200大洋
作者: 横州仔    时间: 2018-10-23 14:19:10

今天电阻和插簧都到了,接上电阻,充电不再出现按下开关。今天南宁气温骤降哦。
作者: panqf    时间: 2019-1-9 17:40:58

后工业时代 发表于 2016-3-5 11:05
出现这种情况,我认为无非是以下几种可能:
1、neato一家独大,没有生存压力。 在智能机的领域,好像neat ...

跟代工没有关系,完全是Neato自己的设计(包括软件设计)、质量控制不过关造成的。




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